Ethnic Slurs and Identity: Growing up Asian in America

I realize I'm getting more into Asian male gender issues, but that's just how I relate to this topic.

That's a huge part of Asian stereotypes - Asian men are supposedly emasculated and asian women are hyper-sexualized. And you know what they say about Asian women? Actually, if you didn't know what they say, you wouldn't believe me if I told you that they said that.

And while there are plenty of other groups dealing with gendered stereotypes (have you heard why Jews love oral sex?) this is probably much more central in anti-asian racism than in other forms of bigotry. How often do Asian or Asian-American men get the girl in the movies?

Yeah...I good go on for days about these stereotypes. I just didn't want to take the discussion there, since the article was more generalized take on growing up Asian in America and not specifically about gender issues.

ignoblus: I recall only Harold in "Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle."

For some YouTube snark on this matter, I direct you to Yellow Fever.

But, I agree that there's definite Asian male emasculation going on. Also, since I've been fortunate to live in very liberal environments, the one thing that actually strikes me is not any palpable "you're less than us" stereotype, but the fact that people can't tell apart the Oriental (Asian, excepting Indian) ethnicities, and have a "oh, you're Asian, which is why you're smart," unconsciously discounting the hard work that goes into "being smart."

I can't tell different white group (English versus French, eg) apart any better than I can tell different Asian groups apart. You might try alllooksame.com to see how you do!

I would add Jackie Chan in Medallion. Horrible movie (unlike Harold and Kumar), but between us we've only got two examples. Chow Yun Fat is a pretty big star in the West, and a huge sex symbol in Asia, but in the US, even directed by Ang Lee, he just walks off alone at the end.

"oh, you're Asian, which is why you're smart," unconsciously discounting the hard work that goes into "being smart."

Yes, but also sometimes creating a threat.

Stereotypes of Asians are very important to study because they work differently than stereotypes of blacks. Studying Asian stereotypes helps a lot of people understand how racism and stereotypes work generally, and for that reason, this is a really important article.

Yes, but also sometimes creating a threat.

Stereotypes of Asians are very important to study because they work differently than stereotypes of blacks. Studying Asian stereotypes helps a lot of people understand how racism and stereotypes work generally, and for that reason, this is a really important article.

You amaze me, ignoblus. You have real perception on this topic. Thank you for a very profound comment (if you instinctively disagree with my praises, read it again please)...

Thank you. I've been pretty fortunate to stumble across good teachers and in good situations where I was able to listen to them.

Hetep and Respect ignoblus, I have difficulty distinguishing different Asian ethnic groups. I know how to say hello in Chines, Japanese and Korean. But I am not sure who is who by looking, I must listen or ask.

Tnx for link allooksame.com I got horrible on first test. I hope this link will help me improve my Asian Cultural Literacy.

P.S. Why do you capitalize Asian and lower case Black people - "black"?

i'm just guessing, but Asian and African and Caucasian would be proper nouns, whereas yellow, black and white are just modifiers.

Tnx for link allooksame.com I got horrible on first test. I hope this link will help me improve my Asian Cultural Literacy.

I'm afraid it's not likely to help you learn to distinguish between different Asian groups. That's probably something you have to learn by seeing lots and lots of Asian faces, and possibly only while young. It's more important to make the point that Asians are not all the same even if you can't tell the difference. There are major differences between, eg, Korean and Chinese cultures. My Korean girlfriend even hates Chinese food. Thailand is mostly Muslim. And, above all, Asian cultures are really not that different from other cultures and are not exotic to the people who live in them.

One of the strangest questions a lot of Asian-Americans seem to get is "where are you from?" The speaker is generally trying to be nice, to learn more about them and learn more about Asian cultures. They might expect and answer like "Korea" or "Vietnam." But when that Asian-American answers something like "Texas," the questioner will often say "no, where are you really from?" as if there were some answer to that. (Sometimes, though, it's "is that in China or Japan?".) It could be a fifth-generation Asian-American whose family has been in this country longer than mine, but somehow there's presumed to be some essential Asian-ness passed through the line that makes them somehow "different."

That presumed difference forms the core of all Asian stereotypes. Around the 30s and 40s in America there were two competing stereotypes of Asian men (of which only one survived). One was that Asian men were sexually depraved and would rape white women. The other was that Asian men were asexual. How could these two stereotypes exist at the same time? The key is that they were both secondary to an more significant myth of difference.

So, if you find yourself wanting to ask an Asian or Asian-American about where they're from, ask yourself why you want to know first.

Excellent point Ignoblus. I consider myself slightly culturally aware (I say slightly because there are things to which I am still ignorant), but I almost never ask where a person is from. If I'm curious about their culture or ethnicity ask about those specifically. But I resist that urge even, because I (like you suggested) must stop and examine what I am really curious about.

Part of it I believe is the need to place people into categories. I find that learning about people's cultures is much more interesting when the learning happens in a organic way, through conversation and simply getting to know the individual.

Hetep and Respect Ignoblus, I worked in New York an saw a lot of Asians all the time. I still had great difficulty telling which ethnic group I was seeing without some type of hint. It is good to know that it is my lack of youth that is responsible for my Asian Cultural illiteracy.

That's probably something you have to learn by seeing lots and lots of Asian faces, and possibly only while young.

Now you can imagine, as the Cultural Health Guy, I need to figure this out before I leave this planet.

So, if you find yourself wanting to ask an Asian or Asian-American about where they're from, ask yourself why you want to know first.

my reason is simple, ethnic groups like to hear their own language and it shows respect and interest from the person of a different ethnicity. I have the greatest fun buying my morning fresh juice from a Korean grocery store and saying hello to the person behind the counter in their language.

I learned early Asians do not react well to "Where are you from?". I try to make my interaction organic when I can. I have a big mouth, so I tell the person my name and ask them theirs. If they say lee or daisy ding I say Nee How (phonetic). I was in retail for a while and this simple interaction made me a lot of money and worked well with all ethnic groups, when I got their ethnicity right.

It is the greatest fun to see the expression on the persons face, usually followed by a big smile. ;-)

Hetep and Respect Eric Atienza, unfortunately, you are right to an extent, many Asians do suffer a degree of Cultural Poisoning (disconnection from their worldview and their language).

The author replied simply, "Well, what's my culture?"

Like Asian Americans we have many young African Americans that are disconnected from the cosmologics of their ancestor's. Culture is a terrible thing to waste. Many Black people, have never been taught what a worldview is, let alone which one is a legacy of their ethnic group.

What was the author's name?

Hetep and Respect, sorry if I missed your point. I get it now.

The question stands as a challenge to someone who seeks to define someone else

From Aunk:

Why do you capitalize Asian and lower case Black people - "black"?

From Mike Rhys:

i'm just guessing, but Asian and African and Caucasian would be proper nouns, whereas yellow, black and white are just modifiers.

For the last several weeks, I've been working a on a project related to these two questions. With regard to "Black" as opposed to "black", capitalization is correct if you are referring to someone's race -- as in "She is a Black American." Or "He is Black." However, my shoes are black or my tires are black, would be correct to refer to the color of the object. The critical distinction and what makes Black parallel to African American is that one would refer to someone whose family has been in the US for generations, such that their nationality (American) is identifiable, but they (sadly) are still identified by a non-"white" skin color. Ethnicity -- that is Latino\a or Hispanic, for one example -- is not limited to race*.

Short answer: If you are referring to a person, always capitalize. Black people -- nor any other persons of color -- are not objects.

*and I'm sure some of you will be beating the "race doesn't exist" drum, however let's be grown-ups and face that the fact that it does, and that we must deal with it.

thanks for that clarification :-)

You're welcome. :)

Aw, thanks Jerry :) Eric is indeed a good guy, a great guy even if you catch him on a good day ;)

Awe man, a screen-name change?! Do you mind if I occasionally still use E2tZ?

Excellent article, Eric.

And, I had the same response as Walt had when Eric started showing up as a friend. If you're gonna' change your name you could at least tell your "friends." ;-) No worries. Take care.

She's canadian and they thought she spoke good english? It always throws me for a loop listening to a canadian accent.

Chill

American kids should visit anywhere outside this country and some need to see something outside their neighborhoods and small towns. I am a pretty open minded person and my mind was blown by my travels abroad. Not only did I learn that the world did not revolve around the US and that many people in other nations see Americans as ignorant buffoons, I also learned to think globally.

Chill, I am white and Canadian, and after a decade of living State-side even I get remarks like "wow, you speak good English."

Well, ok, it's more like "wow, you speak good American." You get the picture.

Well, folks, I was reading along, ready to tell you how I was brought to tears by being called a kike as a child. And I'll never forget the first and only discussion of religion with a high school friend (who happened to be Baptist), who, once he found out I was Jewish, screamed at the top of his voice at me, "You are damned and going to Hell."

Then, Chill, my friend, breaks the loving feeling by calling out Zionists, one of the few remaining ethnic swear words people feel comfortable using. Please understand that it hurts just like kike used to.

Marilyn, I'm Jewish and not a Zionist, and I'm taken aback by the use of the term here and elsewhere by anti-Semites and sympathizers who either don't know what the word means or are deliberately misusing it. Of course, it's easier to criticize "Zionists" than Jews even when that is what the implication clearly is.

Hello Marilyn,

I am very sorry If I caused offense - it was not my intention. I won't steal the thread, But the word was carefully chosen - and I certainly know what it means.

Zionists call themselves Zionists - the term was coined by a Jew. So I miss the swear word connection -- although I understand that it is sometimes used perjoratively . All I meant was that contact with enemies usually breeds peace. Again no offense was intended. I do not see the term in and of itself as an ethnic swearword. If you do, then I respect that and hope you accept my explanation.

If I had the opportunity to rewrite my comment I would say

-- Leaders of the current Israeli Government should visit a refugee camp
-- And Palestinains should visit Israel schools or bus shelters or whatever a good symbol would be.

But I will also admit the comment was far too political for a feel good thread.

My apologies to all

Just to let you all know, I gladly accept the apology, have been very busy (worked til midnight, then up just in time to start all over), so haven't had a chance to discuss offline with Chill, but will do.

What costs nothing and yet is priceless to the recepient? An apology.

Our public officials and other public figures can learn a lot from the people in Newsvine :)

Our public officials and other public figures can learn a lot from the people in Newsvine :)

I understand the sentiment, Writer X, but the problem in politics is that apologies actually do cost. It is considered an admission of guilt, and it can make countries liable to law suits. That's why there are some apologies about things that happened 700 years ago, but no apology about current massacres, genocides, human rights violations, violations of international law, all things that Oluseye Bassir and Gideon Polya can lecture about far better than I.

My point is: People often say that the West gets all the blame, because it is convenient to overlook all the oppressive regimes in the rest of the world. Well, the West is also the only place that has more or less clinical immunity to prosecution for war crimes, so it seems just about fair, the distribution of blame. After all, Saddam Hussein was captured and sentenced. Pinochet died in house arrest. But will we get an apology to the innocent people who have suffered needlessly under the misdirected campaign in Iraq?

(On a personal note: I sometimes say to people they should not apologize. I may come off a bit harsh; I will try to do something about that. What I mean is, actually, don't deflate apology by using it as a cosmetic gesture. I would give an apology, and I do, when it is appropriate. But it is far more important to make a real effort not to hurt or offend needlessly.)

but the problem in politics is that apologies actually do cost.

I agree with this statement Claus but I believe it is dependent on the voters as well. If the public (maybe culture?) demanded humility, this world would be a better place.

A few of my friends are feminists, and through talking with them and through talking to people who say "feminist" with a derogatory implication, it seems that extremist feminists, being the most vocal and most sensational ones, give the entire feminist movement a bad rap.

I definitely think that those who want the patriarchal status quo like to psh this view as much as possible, but the stereotype is, in and of itself, based on subgroup of feminism that is very real, for which the stereotype adequately applies to, and unfortunately, is very vocal about their extreme views.

JACK,

extremist feminists, being the most vocal and most sensational ones, give the entire feminist movement a bad rap.

What bad rap are you talking about? I was not aware feminist had a bad rap.

Jack - We can run a parallel with what you said regarding Muslims as well. It is the minority that is very vocal and violent yet everyone else is now stigmatized because of this few. People blame the majority for not doing anything about it so maybe we can also blame the majority of feminists for this screwed up perspective as well? jk

JRO: "Feminist", for many people, has the bad rap stated by Ardith:

But over the years, woo-ha! Now a feminist is godless, most likely a lesbo, a man-hater, an abortionist, a child-neglecter, etc.

(though admittedly I've personally never heard of implications of "child-neglecter")

Writer X: You make a valid point, though from the news that I hear, there are much more public condemnations of extremist Muslims by average Muslims. Feminism itself is less in the spotlight now, but I still see many middle-ground feminists jumping to rationalize the views of extreme feminists. I don't know how it is outside of the US, from in the States, it seems that people are quick to condemn Islam wholesale because the actions of Muslims extremists hit so close and dear to home. The terrorists were first and foremost identified as Muslims in the public's view. This was the loudest descriptive word (after "terrorist", of course) that people latched onto.

"Feminist" doesn't have this shock and awe factor. There's a rather widespread malaise of "oh, those crazy feminists", but there's no real way to tell if someone's a feminist at a glance. With Islam, people think they can do so. All of these things differentiate the two.

JACK Huang,

Are you crazy?

The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.

Pat Robertson, 1992.

Not to mention Rush Limbaugh's most lasting contribution to the English language: "feminazi."

Jack -

"Feminist" doesn't have this shock and awe factor.

Agreed. Have a happy and safe New Year :)

ignoblus: Thank you for the quote. I'd not heard that before. While Robertson is rather far from mainstream, some lighter versions of his opinions are in wide circulation.

JRO: Care to make a marginally useful counterpoint? Baldfaced incredulity can only go so far.

Writer X: Many happy returns. :-)

JACK,
I don't believe feminism has a bad rap. Just because hate radio idiots like Limbaugh use them to bash women and liberals doesn't make it so. Outside of hate radio stars yelling for ratings I don't see anyone worried about what feminists are going to to next. I don't see any "sane" reasons for anyone to hate feminists. That's why I asked, "What bad rap?"

Outside of hate radio stars yelling for ratings I don't see anyone worried about what feminists are going to to next.

Thus, I addressed the "shock and awe" aspect. I think few people are actively terrified of feminists.

But, if I've met a good number of liberal people who (only when asked) give feminism a bad rap here on the campus of UMichigan. UMichigan is quite liberal, and I imagine that if I can easily find such people here, in several big Northeast cities, and online, chances are that feminism has a pretty widespread bad rap. Like I said, people aren't quaking in fear of feminism, but the negative sentiment is very much alive.

but the negative sentiment is very much alive

Other than sick dudes that hate their mothers... Like what?

I've never met anyone adversely affected by feminism.

I never said that the negative sentiment was rationally and pragmatically justified through personal experience.

Do most people who look askance at a turban-shrouded head personally know someone who died in the World Trade Center?

Were most people who harbor a racist prejudice actually harmed by the target of their bigotry?

If you've yet to meet "normal" people who harbor a prejudice against feminists, then you're lucky, and maybe a bit too sheltered for the self-assurance you put behind your words. As indicated by the comments above (not just from me, and not just quoting radio personalities), such a sentiment is palpable for many of us.

JRO - I think Jack is talking about the stereotypes that are linked to words. I've met a lot of people who use the word "feminist" as a derogatory remark. It is the implied meaning behind the remark that turns it into a "bad rap." If you talk to an ultra conservative I'm sure many would give a hell and brimstone account of how "feminists" have ruined things.

The bottomline is that words and their meanings have always been used as a political tool. If you use feminist and Clinton and feminist and Jane Doe you get two totally different meanings from the sentence. There is a difference between explicit and implicit meaning.

If you are open minded it won't affect you so much, but if you are a bigot, then the words have a more powerful impact.

JACK,

too sheltered

That would be a treat.

"normal" people who harbor a prejudice against feminists

Nope. None

Were most people who harbor a racist prejudice actually harmed by the target of their bigotry?

Without question they were harmed by something.

Do most people who look askance at a turban-shrouded head personally know someone who died in the World Trade Center?

The shock of that massive strike hit everyone. Unstable minds understandable took the hit hard grabbing straws for support. Let's hope they will someday heal.

I never said that the negative sentiment was rationally and pragmatically justified through personal experience.

I never considered the absurd possibility of justification. I was wondering and my question asked what the unjustified reasons were if any really do exist.

Do we need to dirty this article?
It's too good and it's Christmas.

What should Rosie O'Donnell have said instead?

What should Rosie O'Donnell have said instead?

Ummmm... some variation of "Sorry"?
I wasn't personally offended by her remarks, but if a large number of people of the ethnicity you're joking about takes offense, the courteous thing to say (esp. if you're a public personality) is "Sorry. I didn't mean to offend," not "Haha. I don't think that's offensive. Why don't you lighten up.."

Yeah, to plead ignorance is fair once. It's not up to Rosie to determine what offends Asian America.
Rosie's follow-up to the gaffe is tantamount to Richards supplanting an apology for his recent remarks with "Really? I think "@!$%#" is a hilarious word! I'm sorry you don't get my jokes. I guess the laugh's on you, negroids!"

Okay, what I meant to ask was, what should Rosie have said instead of her original comments, assuming she didn't mean them to be insulting? Was there some way for her to get her point across (doing an impression of someone speaking Chinese) without being offensive, assuming she didn't know Chinese? To me it seems analogous to people imitating French without actually speaking French.

I frankly think that a random assortment of Asian-esque syllables would do the job better.

You don't fall back on the stereotypical (and often derogatory) "ching chong," yet do something similar to what people do when they imitate French.

Then again, that could be found offensive by some, so you could do an unintelligible mumble or a variation of the "yadda yadda yadda." I think the random syllable assortment would suffice, but you probably want to be a bit more cautious.

Further, I question the prudence of even going down that avenue with her joke, when she's clearly ridiculously outspoken about certain perceived slights against some minorities, like homosexuals.

She didn't have to mimic at all--she could have left it at "among all this Chinese you get English words." But funnier, of course.

Ardith @ #11.

11Somehow, "Zionist" has become like the Jewish "@!$%#", thanks to many language attacks by enemies.

Stolte-sawa @ #12.4

Yeah, to plead ignorance is fair once. It's not up to Rosie to determine what offends Asian America. Rosie's follow-up to the gaffe is tantamount to Richards supplanting an apology for his recent remarks with "Really? I think "@!$%#" is a hilarious word! I'm sorry you don't get my jokes. I guess the laugh's on you, negroids!"

I'm going to ask both of you to refrain from using the N-word to make your points. I know you are well-intentioned, however you're making my Victoria Secrets bunch up and chafe, and that's not comfortable (so while you try to get that image unburned from your collective psyches) let me suggest that you either do as our friend Aunk suggests and give us the "N-word Alert" and use "N-word" in your comments in lieu of spelling it out, or simply not use the word. And stolte-sawa -- "negroid" is just as offensive.

thanks ladies....

Thats @ #11.11 for Ardith's comment....

and wouldn't you know I read down a little further and we get this from The GAT at #17.2 apparently in reference to something said by Brian White:

No @!$%# jokes but a significant part of the local population is made up of Portuguese, so they fall into the non-Asian-but-teased group but are still considered local.

and then this again from Brian W.:

So what's the rule here? Ethnic jokes are funny and acceptable except when they're told by white people?

All on an article about racial/ethnic insensitivity. Some of you just don't get it.

People, people, people.... are you listening?? Ethnic jokes are not funny -- doesn't matter who tells the joke. Racial jokes are not funny. If it offends, it's not funny. Go back re-read Eric article.

No amount of preparation or knowledge, however, seem to provide adequate defense against these epithets. Sometimes thrown so casually, these ghostly bullets quickly bypass all reasoned and logical barriers to strike at the flesh below.

Thrown casually -- just like telling a harmless little joke...

@Rational, that was the point I was trying to make, though I was too hot-tempered when I made it. I just hoped that throwing out the most culturally loaded offensive word there is would make the point that Asian-Asian ethnic jokes are really no different from White-Black ethnic jokes, so if one is wrong they both are. I apologize if anyone was upset by my words.

I do feel that there is room for joking about how stupid stereotypes are, a la The Chappelle Show, but that's a very, very narrow tightrope to walk if even Dave Chappelle couldn't maintain it. I don't know if this is true, but I heard the reason he first quit the show is that a white staffmember was laughing too hard at one of the skits, in a way that made Dave very uncomfortable and uncertain about whether he was poking holes in stereotypes, or just reinforcing them. So it's always playing with fire.

I know both of you were well-meaning in your attempt to make your points. And that your purpose was to draw a sharp contrast, or shock the reader to a Eureka moment -- that "Ah Ha! I got it!" moment.

My issue is that flipping out the N-word seems to be the "go-to play," the easy way out. And you forget that there is someone else out there reading this that isn't as intelligent, or as culturally savvy, and is not able to make the distinctions that you and I can easily grasp. And more importantly, because you have the anonymity of the computer screen betwen you and your readers, you're much more likely to say things here that you wouldn't say as readily in a face-to-face conversation.

Ardith, I did read your newest essay, and have been thinking about adding a comment there; which you may see later today. (It's positive, just wanted to frame it appropriately in my head first.)

Brian, by the time I got the party here, your comment had been deleted so I didn't see what you had posted originally; I could only take a wild guess at what the exchange between you and the GAT contained. You're right in saying that ethnic jokes are offensive universally. But I don't think it's necessary to then use the N-word to make your point.

Similarly, Ardith, attaching the N-word to describe Zionists was unnecessary.

But my point is that by "throwing out the most culturally loaded offensive word there is," the "go-to," lowest-of-the-low, you continue to give that caché. And it shouldn't be something that you can just "throw out" there.

Okay, we be cool now! ;) Peace out!

Similarly, Ardith, attaching the N-word to describe Zionists was unnecessary.

A lot of people do not realize how the word Zionist is used or how it is often really offensive. I'm afraid I can't see another way to make that point.

I would say try harder. Using the N-word as shorthand is unacceptable. Period. If you can't figure out how to make your point about Zionist without using a phrase like "Jewish N-word", well, I feel sorry for you, Ignoblus.

Hetep and Respect Ardeth You make an important point about the entrenched and seemingly intractable Culturally Poisoned term "Indian".

Here's a situation that best defines the problem with dropping Indian: National Congress of American Indians . That name's not going to change anytime soon. Also, I don't see a National Congress of American...now name more than 500 tribes, bands, etc. etc. to complete the title!

You speak the truth, despite the fact that Columbus, in lying to Queen Elizabeth about finding a short route to India, told her he found "Indians" on Turtle Island, some of the decedents of indigenous people still call themselves "Indians".

We know this challenge well, after having the virus "Negro" inserted into our brains, it took hundreds of years and James Brown to restore us to Black.

Your people were here and naming themselves for thousands of years before the Image Poisoning was inserted. Your people have only had the dis-ease for a few hundred years, a drop in the historical bucket of indigenous people. I am confident that your people will restore their Cultural Health in this regard, in their own good time. Most Black people called themselves the "N" word and today most Black people have deleted this Culturally Poisoned program. The same will happen with the "I" word.

If you can't figure out how to make your point about Zionist without using a phrase like "Jewish N-word", well, I feel sorry for you, Ignoblus.

I'm open to suggestions.

Here's the deal, Ardith... My point is that you weren't the only one who used it; Stolte-Sawa tossed it out for comedic purposes (one would guess, I didn't find it funny) Brian White used it, and The GAT. Why?

You're all smart people. Why go with what Brian characterized (and I agree) is the most offensive term, when you can say what you want with thousands of other words and phrases that can deliver the same message.

Every Black person has his or her own opinion about using the N-word -- I rarely use it in writing, and almost never in speech. It is not a go-to phrase for me. That rappers or others in the hip-hop subset of the Black community think they can use is a decision for them to make. I would caution against it for precisely the reason we're discussing it here:
confusion and mixed messages. I am one who strongly believes that non-Black people should consider the word Kryptonite. Just don't touch it. There is no way for you to effectively downplay the racist nature of the word. You can't make a joke with it. You can't show camaraderie with it. I would prefer that Black folks avoid it, too.

With regard to the Native American, American Indian or tribal name, that is up to you to tell us. I was doing some research at the Cherokee Nation website where "Indian" was used, similarly at other sites. Personally, I use whatever terminology the person(s) I am addressing would prefer.

I found it disturbing that in a well-written piece about ethnic slurs, some folks went there. Unnecessarily. And did it precisely in the manner that Eric described. Just tossed it out there like it was nothing. I felt I had to say something -- especially as a member of the target ethnic group.

And note, Ardith please... I did not call you "the lowest of the low" I said the word represents the lowest of the low. Big Difference. What I said was not a missile, not a bomb, not nuclear, nor did I go postal. What I did was step in and say, as a Black person, I strongly object to you non-Black people thinking you can toss out "@!$%#" whenever the hell you please and thinking no one is going to call you on it. It's offensive, it's a cheap shot, and it is unnecessary. (Note: I used it to make my point loud and clear.)

Yes, Ardith... I can participate in any discussion, I can read them here, I can comment or not as the case warrants. This case warranted. I felt I had given my little rant and said enough for the time being. Let me translate for you:

We be cool... I'm not mad, we're still friends, you're all okay in my book.
Peace out... no more ranting from me (except that here I am ranting again)

Also notice, Ardith... That I opened my remarks to you and Stolte by saying that I know you mean well, but... That is, I get what you're trying to do, but Houston, we have a problem here.

None of my comments were a personal attack on you, just a reminder that you (singularly and the rest of you reading collectively) need to remember that other folks read your comments and can be offended.

I think the way to be unsnagged is to remember when you're writing or speaking who may be reading or listening. And before you say something you think is witty, snappy, or whatever, think about someone you know who of the ethnicity or religion or culture you are about to comment on. would they be offended by that remark? If the answer is yes, or I don't know, rephrase it and if you can't do that, perhaps silence is a better option.

Eric, sorry for the hijack... but it is related to what you were saying in your terrific piece.

One thing that drives me a little nutsy is when Black people jump on others for using the "nono word" then produce rap.appear on TV and do comedy using that very same word. Huh?

Ardith, this is all part of the cultural poisoning Aunk speaks of on a regular basis. We cannot control the actions of others, only ourselves. As a college aide and mentor, I challenged all of the students I heard use the N-word or any other racial epithet against themselves or to address their friends because I too believe it creates mixed messages. Many people in the Black community have internalized this word but likewise, there are many others who don't.

Popular "rap" music is a product of the music industry and an appropriation of the image of "blackness" by the mass media. Aunk Let me know if you agree with this hypothisis: If the mass media has a large hand in shaping society by reiforcing mores, normes, values, etc., then mass media must change in order to create a more culturally healthy society.

Who doesn't realize that it is the Americans, Zionists, and Neocons that stand most in need of greater understanding?

It is, man. Once you have travelled the great waters, seen real poverty, horror and misery caused by cluster bombs, or bonded with the destitute of the earth, you will not walk so proud and talk so loud anymore. There is a deep, almost unfathomable crisis that cause the events taking place in the world today. A lot of people don't get that.

Happy Holidays.

Just one look at what Europe and the Middle East have "accomplished" over the past seventy years in terms of utter destruction and chaos totally recommends them as models for the rest of humanity. But then maybe I'm forgetting that all of that has been due to the cultural insensitivity of Americans, Zionists, and Neocons.

I don't buy it. You guys, as cultures, have learned little. All I see is people mistaking the process of running from problems for the process of running into them.

You guys, as cultures, have learned little.

Sorry, lost you.

Well, the Middle East remains as bloody as ever, suggesting that little has been learned. And Europe writ large still goes for talk over action, allowing problems to build until things get out of control, all the while advising the US to be more like you. Some of us ignorant Americans are paying attention to what's happening in Europe. Old Europe bends over backward with cultural sensitivity while the demographics and aggression from immigrants point to either another outbreak of continent-wide violence or a complete disappearance of Europe as it has existed for centuries. The trends are not pretty, and hope for a gentle outcome is not a friend.

Eric, thanks for your story. It was quite something to read. Brave, sincere, dignified. I can't imagine what it took for you to write all that. I don't think I could do that. Thanks to all the people who get it.

I don't want to take this off topic, but I don't think Zionist means what you think it means. This is what some Zionists might look like.

Maybe I'm being argumentative, maybe I'm stating the obvious, but isn't it also true that there are many things in life we (as individuals and cultures) can't understand *unless* we have lives of relative comfort and privilege? Maslow's triangle and all that. Not having to worry about starving or getting blown up leaves us more energy toward advancing the cutting edge of enlightenment (e.g., addiction recovery, gay rights).

Just one look at what Europe and the Middle East have "accomplished" over the past seventy years in terms of utter destruction and chaos totally recommends them as models for the rest of humanity.

Silly comment IMHO

One of the absolutely greatest and most under-rated accomplishments of the 20th century is how Europe has integrated -- and Germany (and Italy/Hungary/etc) has/have become -- a truly productive and valuable world citizen. Germany is a force for peace and within Europe there is now zero (zero) likelihood of war in the forseeable future. This is an achievement - a major achievement.

In fact, personally i measure progress on when nations join the coalition of the peaceful - such as Japan and South Korea have clearly done.

The challenges of the next decade for the west is how to ensure China, Russia (the USA?) and others feel welcome and willing to join.

Asian Americans may have it better in California than in Ohio, but there's still a long way to go.

Thanks for writing this, Eric!

...there's still a long way to go even in California.

Depends, where you live. In San Francisco, the majority is asian. At my school, it's about 25%. It was a lot worse 30 years ago then it is now. White people are typically outnumbered in California. But for the rest of the USA it is different.

Sounds worse than it actually is, Brian. No @!$%# jokes but a significant part of the local population is made up of Portuguese, so they fall into the non-Asian-but-teased group but are still considered local. The main point of my post was that in Hawaii, since Asians make up the majority of the island, they don't deal with a lot of the identity issues that Asians on the mainland do, and they have a little fun with it. There's nothing mean sprited or oppressive associated with this humor, but it's more a celebration of differences between the local cultures. It helps if you're part of the community being teased like Poles telling Polack jokes, Italians telling Italian jokes, etc. It might not be right in the eyes of people outside of the community, but the jokes aren't for them anyway.

Now if your haole in Hawaii, then that's another topic altogether, but the history of that word is also related to this issue.

I haven't, but my wife has heard of her. Interesting article on her in The Nation in 1999, and I think this passage outlines the aforementioned "sensitivity" I see over racial issues between mainland and the islands, even in educational circles:

A vociferous faction of the Association for Asian American Studies (AAAS) has been incensed with Yamanaka ever since her book of prose poems, Saturday Night at the Pahala Theatre, in which a young girl repeats some ugly but prevalent local superstitions, including the stereotype of Filipino men as rapacious sexual predators. Published by Bamboo Ridge Press, Saturday Night won a Pushcart Prize and the AAAS 1994 literature award, although the latter was fiercely debated at the association's conference. As Wendy Motooka, an assistant professor of English at Oberlin, recalls in the Spring 1998 issue of Bamboo Ridge, "A woman whom I later learned was an ethnic studies professor argued that Yamanaka's representations were potentially harmful to Filipino men, who are still largely ostracized from society, and that Yamanaka should have taken more care to indicate that she herself did not endorse these sterotypes."

I'm really interested in Yamanaka's work now (thanks!) and am a strong believer in the writer's freedom to tell their stories. I'm not a big fan of Amy Tan's work because of how she portray's Asian men, and she's gotten a lot of heat from other academics also, but those are her stories and I don't have to read them.

So what's the rule here? Ethnic jokes are funny and acceptable except when they're told by white people?

You said on one hand it's for people inside a community (Poles telling Pollack jokes) and on the other hand that Asians tease each other about their origin (like Italians telling Pollack jokes). You also say it's lighthearted, but that quote there says Filipinos are largely ostracized from society.

So what's the rule here? Ethnic jokes are funny and acceptable except when they're told by white people?

Logically, it's not right, but that's always been the paradigm for ethnic humor.

You said on one hand it's for people inside a community (Poles telling Pollack jokes) and on the other hand that Asians tease each other about their origin (like Italians telling Pollack jokes).

It's more like locals telling local jokes...local encompassing all the non-white ethnic groups.

You also say it's lighthearted, but that quote there says Filipinos are largely ostracized from society.

The "ostracized" quote is likely from a mainland academic who's looking at it from the "mountaintop" and doesn't really understand life in Hawaii. It also represents an older generation's perspective that doesn't really apply to the way Hawaii is today.

Anybody know any "cracker" jokes? Aside from jokes about blonds, I can't recall one single "cracker" joke. Seriously, considering my well known level of consumption of American pop culture, how can this be the case?

(shhh...the super-secret-cyber-commando-cracker-thought-police take care of that for us...)

There are plenty of redneck jokes.

Ethnic or racist jokes can sometimes serve a positive purpose, but it's nearly impossible to figure out when and how except in the moment. I think a decent test might be, after an evening drinking with someone of that ethnicity whom I had never met before, could I tell that joke and expect it to bring us closer together?

But Clause, at least half of all jokes out there are about dumb blonds ;-)

Of course that is mainly because we are jealous that we either aren't one or are not sleeping with one.

Oh man, I just butchered Claus's name...

There are plenty of redneck jokes.

Well, Jeff Foxworthy and Larry the Cable Guy have made rather successful careers out of those very jokes.

But, of course, redneck jokes are really classist. There aren't any good jokes about middle-class whites.

Brian White,

Why are you derailing this article? It's a great story. Remember the Cub Scout in the Buckeye State? This article is about personal feelings... not analysis and bickering.

Hey Brian. Write an article and use the "n-word" there as freely as you like "there" and we'll join in and try to make you understand how really screwed up you are... "there". I'm not comfortable trying to do that "here".

@Brian White ----N WORD ALERT---N WORD ALERT!

From 17.4:

A vociferous faction of the Association for Asian American Studies (AAAS) has been incensed with Yamanaka ever since her book of prose poems, Saturday Night at the Pahala Theatre, in which a young girl repeats some ugly but prevalent local superstitions, including the stereotype of Filipino men as rapacious sexual predators.

I coughed up my coffee when I read that. Yes I'm an academic, well in training at least, and I was there at that meeting in Hawai'i. And I was one of the "vociferous faction" of AAAS. A LOT happened at that conference and the exchange while heated was still civil. But the central question was not about literary freedom. It was about the mission of professors in Asian American Studies/Ethnic Studies to teach Asian American history and culture, and critique modes and policies of domination and exclusion of Asians in the US. At the same time, it also was about how do we praise and acknowledge literary authors who's work challenged and raised our understanding about the effects of racism.

Lois-Ann Yamanaka's work, especially the book Blu's Hanging, is a very politically nuanced and complicated book. Her work critiques the popular representation of Hawai'i as this multicultural paradise and exposes an ugly economic and racial underside. That although Asians constitute the majority, there is still a racial hierarchy with Chinese and Japanese on top all the way down to Filipinos. Native Hawai'ians are at the very bottom. Hawai'i is very different when you're seeing it from the lowest of the low. But while she provides this powerful criticism, she does so by reinscribing the very same racist stereotypes of Filipinos that we, as teachers, are trying to dismantle. It doesn't help when she, herself, is Japanese American so the mainland analogy would be, for example, a white guy writing about the poverty of Native American life on reservations, but using the worst stereotypes to describe them. Like I said earlier, this is not solely about literary freedom, but it was a political question about Yamanaka and our integrity and committments as researchers and teachers. As a result, I took a stand against Yamanaka because it was the right thing to do and it still is. By the way, I've read the book and it's a powerful read. But like I said, you would get very little if you don't know the history or politics of poverty in Hawai'i.

If this is speaking from the "mountaintop" and as a member of "an older generation" then ... uh ... sure.

And my apologies for the elongated post. I still don't know the etiquette with posting around here and I didn't mean to hijack Eric's thread if I did.

So JRO, you support the idea that ethnic asian jokes are harmless lighthearted fun, and that at the same time @!$%# is an off limits, forbidden word? I used it because I don't see how the two are different. Seriously, how is joking about someone being ethnically Japanese any different than joking about someone being black?

The article was about the hurtful effects of ethnic slurs. The comment was about how fun it is to tell ethnic jokes. Am I the only person who sees a problem with that?

Disoriented,

Thanks for that. It's a difficult position for Asian American academia, especially when dealing with literature set in Hawaii since it oftentimes pits Asian groups against each other as you described. Most Asian American literature based on the mainland deals with a white "oppressor" so the power relationships are easier to outline. It's almost as if Hawaii should be treated as a separate subtopic in Asian American studies because the power structures and racial stratification on the islands is unique. (If it already is, my apologies...been out of academia for a very long time).

I don't know if taking a stand against Yamanaka is the "right" thing to do because the stories reflect the reality of the region, regardless of who is or isn't the oppressor. Is it too difficult to praise the literature for being good literature while at the same time acknowledging that such a provocative text raises issues that are worthy of discussion by researchers, teachers and their students?

(disclaimer: I've not read any of Yamanaka's work, but will now based on this thread)

Anyway, I'm glad you're here, Disoriented, as a representative voice of Asian American academia. I once planned on being an AsiaAm/Ethnic Studies prof...but life took me in a different direction.

Brian White,

I thought the article was solid enough to rise above analysis and personal enough to avoid debating the obvious. Oh well...

I'll bite the hook. First of all... the odds tell me you are white. I think you are using the "n-word" as bait for conversation. And that's only because I'm giving you the benefit of doubt that you probably don't use the "n-word" when you're drinking beer with your friends. Using it while drinking beer would make you a dirt bag in my mind. I think you are using it for its shock value in order to PRESS your point that all racial jokes are hurtful. I'd just add that it's not necessary.

From an early age I was taught that fair people do not use the "n-word", or any words like it. Personal experience taught me that people that do use it are the lowest form of dirt bag alive and better shunned whenever possible. I don't think I'm totally alone thinking like this, but, that does not matter anyway. I don't know if there are words that push your buttons but that one pushes all of my buttons.

I'll add... Hearing the "n-word" or any variant of it from an adult black person does not phase me in the slightest.

The GAT,

Eric, you should take a trip to Hawaii. Asians are the majority there and don't have to deal with these issues at all.

Eric, Please correct me if I'm wrong...

GAT, I think you missed a major aspect of what Eric's story so eloquently offered. Eric is white. Only his appearance is Asian. He told a story of a kid brought up with Wally and Beaver. He see's the world through hot dog and apple pie eyes. Eric is rooted in Mid-Western American White Man culture.

Going to Hawaii for Eric would be the same experience as Wally and Beaver going to Hawaii... with the exception of first impressions.

Hawaii is not a Asian racial "Kumbaya" by any means. Racial jokes and slurs in Hawaii are somewhat socially accepted because racism is so prevalent there. The locals in Hawaii are rooted in their respective ethnicity with an Oahu twist. I don't think Eric would immediately find any answers in Hawaii. Eric one haole brah.

JRO,

Up above, Eric said earlier that he is Filipino and his article talks about how he had a very white, midwestern-style American upbringing. His experience is actually very similar to my own upbringing, although I seem to have had the benefit of growing up within a fairly strong Filipino American community that flourished in a mostly white (~85%) Southern California suburb. Despite this strong community connection, I had my fair share of identity issues throughout adolescence that didn't get worked until I got to college.

I know Hawaii isn't a racial Kumbaya, but when I'm there visiting the inlaws, I'm much more at ease because I see people everywhere who look like me. In fact, the locals there think I'm from Hawaii, not my wife who was born and raised there. Not that I don't feel at ease in any other part of the country I visit, but in Hawaii, I like the fact that I can blend in with the local population instead of sticking out like a sore thumb.

JRO, I just realized I kinda misread your previous comment, but it doesn't affect the intent behind the rest of my post. Just ignore the first sentence! :-)

GAT,

when I'm there visiting the in-laws, I'm much more at ease because I see people everywhere who look like me.

I think that might be Eric's point. You were grounded in your ethnicity. Eric is saying that he was grounded with Wally and The Beve and feels pain when someone from the hood makes him feel like an outsider. Maybe Eric will chime in.

...instead of (FEELING LIKE I'M?) sticking out like a sore thumb.

That must suck. But only you have control of that feeling. The world will not change and moving to Hawaii should not be the only solution.

JRO, I'm very comfortable in my own skin, but I'm also spoiled because I'm used to living in ethnically diverse areas (LA and SF Bay Area). I'm also accustomed to white suburban life because it's where I grew up and I probably move more freely in that situation than people who grew up in mostly ethnic enclaves.

I know I can't control the world, but there are times where I end up in places (esp. more rural areas) where I'm the only one who looks like me and I actually notice it. That's when my guard comes up. In Hawaii, my guard rarely if ever comes up because I never feel like it has to.

It also doesn't mean I'd ever want to live there. Even though the weather is great, after about a week, it's pretty boring, and all the good jobs are on the mainland anyway. :)

When I was growing up the clusters of Filipinos were always a distance away and so the only times I'd be able to see said friends would be if our parents drove us the 35-45 minutes to do so

This is so true... When I was younger and there were very few Filipinos nearby, this basically summed up our weekends visiting relatives.

My best friend and his family, who I've known since 2nd grade, were introduced to us by our elementary school principal. It was basically...oh hey, you're Filipino, so are they! They're like a second family to me, especially since I'm an only child, and I got exposed to a lot of Filipino culture through them as well. We eventually found some other families and formed the community's Fil-Am Association, which is still going strong today, more than 25 years later. I swear, we were like the Filipino pioneers of our city.

My only regret is that I never learned to speak Tagalog. I actually rebelled against it because I wanted to be as "American" as possible...a conscious decision I made when I was 7 or so because I wanted to fit in so badly.

Yeah, I can understand more than I can speak. But I do have this killer Filipino accent that is great fun at parties or when relatives are over. It's an amalgamation of a few family friends with super-thick accents. Some may call it mocking...I call it a celebration of the uniqueness of my people. I love the Filipino accent.

Hey, do you know who Rex Navarrete is? He's hilarious!

Hey Gat,

Thanks for the follow-up and an excellent question. I hope I didn't sound overbearing in my post. I seriously was taken aback when you posted the clip from The Nation about Lois-Ann Yamanaka and Asian American Studies. It's not quite exactly news everyone knows, but I was pleasantly surprised to see it!

I don't know if taking a stand against Yamanaka is the "right" thing to do because the stories reflect the reality of the region, regardless of who is or isn't the oppressor. Is it too difficult to praise the literature for being good literature while at the same time acknowledging that such a provocative text raises issues that are worthy of discussion by researchers, teachers and their students?

We do praise literature and cultural production, but we also value criticism as a tool for analysis, to shed a different perspective or to reveal a different meaning. I use Yamanaka's books in my classes even though I stood against it. It's a powerful book to read, but it's also my job to deconstruct it. Some students were outraged, some believe it's free speech, and a host of a dozen other reasons. I'd say that's a pretty damn good book if it generates this much reaction from students today. I tend to think of the work as a productive tension.

Hey, do you know who Rex Navarrete is? He's hilarious!

Ha, yeah I saw him at a Filipino conference in Milwaukee last year, it was a riot.

OMG! Rex and I were undergraduates at SFSU. I saw him recently in Washington, DC, and his new work is awesome!

Eric & GAT,

I like my interpretation of the story better.

I agree now. Eric should spend a few weeks lounging and loafing on Dig Me Beach only leaving to quench his thirst at Duke's Waikiki.

At least the two groups agreed on slaughtering the native americans :(

Hetep and REspect Brian, point well taken, hopefully the humanist today are not what they use to be.